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esf

Posts: 84 Join date: 2012-01-02
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:53 pm | |
| A Rabbi told me that salting the bread is symbolic of the temple sacrifices.
Will there be other Jewish families around to participate and help you along? If not, I wonder if this is the right/time place to do a Shabbat demo? Of course, it's absolutely up to you, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable 'introducing' people to Shabbat in this situation, where it might be hard to set up a 'Shabbat atmosphere', and when you're still in the process of conversion. |
|  | | tamar

Posts: 181 Join date: 2012-01-01 Location: Northern Virginia
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:04 pm | |
| | Mychal wrote: | Thanks for the info; I'm going to start digging into the websites you mentioned.
I had forgotten about needing to wash hands first. That's something that's done at my Conservative synagogue, but was never done at my Reform one (I'm still pretty new to Conservative).
Is there a religious/symbolic reason why the bread is salted? Again, that's done at my Con. shul, but I had not seen it done before and have not heard any explanation for it.
Challah is almost certainly an impossibility. We're going to be leaving the Friday night or Saturday morning before and camping for a week; fresh bread won't keep a week without molding, so I can't take it with me. (And while we have a propane stove in our camp, I have never baked bread before, and I don't think that's a good time to try and learn.)
We're also a half hour from Hattiesburg, MS (which isn't exactly known for its huge Jewish population to start with) and we do not usually go off site once we get there--although someone in our camp invariably makes a mid-week booze and grocery run; I could get them to pick up something fresh which should last until Friday.
The other option I've considered is taking matzah with me. I know it will keep and it's not like it's forbidden to eat it outside Passover. As far as I know, there's nothing wrong with having new, unopened matzah in lieu of bread at a Shabbat. |
We put a bowl of kosher salt along side of the challah for Shabbat. Here is the reason why from ask Moses.
Our table is considered an altar (see Ezekiel 41:22 and Ethics of our Fathers 3:3), and in the Holy Temple salt was offered together with every sacrifice (Leviticus 2:13).
Salt never spoils or decays, therefore, it is symbolic of our eternal covenant with G-d. That's why the verse refers to it as "the salt of your G-d's covenant.
Salt also adds taste to everything. Our bond with G-d is supposed to add meaning and flavor to every moment of our lives; even when we are not directly involved in spiritual pursuits. |
|  | | Debbie B.

Posts: 324 Join date: 2011-09-05 Location: Chicagoland
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:09 pm | |
| Salt on challah is just traditional, so Conservative Jews being more traditional than Reform Jews are simply more likely to have retained that minhag. Here's one answer about why: A Grain of Salt
Under the circumstances you describe, I think you are right that matzah is your best bet. The matzah does not even have to be from an unopened box; you just need two pieces that are whole. Matzah is always permissible for Hamotzi for Shabbat. In fact, I was once at a friend's house for Shabbat and the guests who had offered to bring challah forgot and left them at home, so the hosts just used matzah.
Two nice whole loaves of bread would be nicer, if they can be bought during the mid-week grocery run. But I'd go with the matzah if the only bread that can be bought that way is loaves of sliced "Wonderbread".
So I guess Dena's question about Havdalah is relevant if this is a multi-day event. However, if you are not actually strictly observing Shabbat by refraining from all forms of work and cooking, then I tend to feel that the Havdalah ritual lacks meaning since you aren't really ending a distinct and different "sacred time" period. However, I understand how other Jews could feel differently about that. |
|  | | maculated

Posts: 156 Join date: 2011-09-07 Age: 33 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:08 pm | |
| Salting food was what they did at the Temple for sacrifices. The challah is your sacrifice at your Shabbat table.
It doesn't have to be challah - anything made of bread and uncut works (bagels, rolls, pitas). |
|  | | Debbie B.

Posts: 324 Join date: 2011-09-05 Location: Chicagoland
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:01 pm | |
| esf raises some important considerations.
Mychal, have you not completed the conversion process yet? If not, I hope you will not be offended, but it is not proper for someone who is not Jewish to lead prayers or blessings on behalf of other Jews. It is specifically forbidden for someone who is not obligated to do a mitzvah to do it on behalf of others who are obligated. (That the the reason used by many Orthodox poskim, even those who don't think there are issues of "kol isha" [men hearing a women's voice], to rule that women may not lead services such as Shacharit for which they are exempt since women are not required to do "time-bound" mitzvot. For this reason, when the JTS first started to accept women into (Conservative) rabbinical program it required the women to personally pledge to take on the obligation of davening three times a day in order to be counted in a minyan.)
I am sympathetic to people well into the conversion process. I truly understand what it is like: I was a non-Jew who even helped host Passover seders for over 20 years with my Jewish husband before I converted. But I never led any prayer or blessing before I converted, even though I knew them very well. Following along is completely permissible though.
Back to Mychal's situation: If there are in fact no other Jews at the event, it seems like to do Friday night kiddush as a "demonstration" makes it seem like "cultural anthropology". The Hebrew will be incomprehensible and my feeling is that the rituals will be seen by others as "quaint" in keeping with the other simulated "archaic" activities that you are involved in, rather than part of a serious living tradition observed by modern Jews.
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|  | | esf

Posts: 84 Join date: 2012-01-02
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:51 pm | |
| | Debbie B. wrote: | esf raises some important considerations.
Mychal, have you not completed the conversion process yet? If not, I hope you will not be offended, but it is not proper for someone who is not Jewish to lead prayers or blessings on behalf of other Jews. It is specifically forbidden for someone who is not obligated to do a mitzvah to do it on behalf of others who are obligated. (That the the reason used by many Orthodox poskim, even those who don't think there are issues of "kol isha" [men hearing a women's voice], to rule that women may not lead services such as Shacharit for which they are exempt since women are not required to do "time-bound" mitzvot. For this reason, when the JTS first started to accept women into (Conservative) rabbinical program it required the women to personally pledge to take on the obligation of davening three times a day in order to be counted in a minyan.)
I am sympathetic to people well into the conversion process. I truly understand what it is like: I was a non-Jew who even helped host Passover seders for over 20 years with my Jewish husband before I converted. But I never led any prayer or blessing before I converted, even though I knew them very well. Following along is completely permissible though.
Back to Mychal's situation: If there are in fact no other Jews at the event, it seems like to do Friday night kiddush as a "demonstration" makes it seem like "cultural anthropology". The Hebrew will be incomprehensible and my feeling is that the rituals will be seen by others as "quaint" in keeping with the other simulated "archaic" activities that you are involved in, rather than part of a serious living tradition observed by modern Jews.
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Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking far more eloquently than I had time to do! Your last paragraph was precisely what I would be concerned about. |
|  | | Bee

Posts: 317 Join date: 2011-09-12
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:13 am | |
| | Mychal wrote: | | I don't think women were separated from men at a family Shabbat by my time period (14th century). That is, of course, the custom at weddings and social celebrations, but I haven't seen any indication that people did that at home--even if there were male guests present.The custom of having a women light the candles/lamps appears to be very old, and would indicate that women were present at the dinner table. |
You might want to double check, women could not even pass an object to her husband with a pole, and lightening candles may have been done in their presence-maybe or maybe not since it fell as a woman's mitzvot. I'm not sure, but women did not eat with the men especially if there were male guest. See the link I sent you, she was in another room dining, the last drink of the wine is offered because whoever drinks it gets to be the recipient of the blessing, the guest offered it to the husband but the husband wanted his wife to receive it (they wanted children) so he asked if it could be sent to her (Yalta) if you ever get a chance study this great woman of Talmud-I'm a big fan of her. Point is, this is an example of women not permitted to eat at the man's table. Research medieval times on woman's roles and limitations. I may be mistaken. |
|  | | Bee

Posts: 317 Join date: 2011-09-12
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:29 am | |
| Ps in the story the guest gets upset at the thought of giving the blessing of the cup of wine to a woman, despite that she was a scholar and the daughter of the high priest, that reserved wine blessing was not given to women, just like it is not customary now to offer the wife a drink from the wine during Havdalah. Like I said, I may be mistaken. Also I like to add that the men or maybe the woman too...would do something special on Shabbos or even bring home something, my husband brings fresh flowers for Shabbos. I'm curious on what traditions certain medieval men would do for Shabbos? |
|  | | Mychal

Posts: 272 Join date: 2011-09-23 Location: Tennessee
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:14 pm | |
| | Quote: | | If there are in fact no other Jews at the event, it seems like to do Friday night kiddush as a "demonstration" makes it seem like "cultural anthropology". The Hebrew will be incomprehensible and my feeling is that the rituals will be seen by others as "quaint" in keeping with the other simulated "archaic" activities that you are involved in, rather than part of a serious living tradition observed by modern Jews. |
We are not a public organization, so this is not a demonstration for an audience which is there to be entertained. The people who will show up on a Friday night (instead of going to a party) are people who are truly interested in learning something and participating.
I try to always light candles on Shabbat. I have never done a blessing over bread and wine because there's only me, and I don't drink wine (I can't drink grape juice either; it doesn't agree with me). When I noticed last year that there were a number of people on site (relatively speaking) who had Jewish personas (they may or may not be Jews in real life), I thought it would be a neat idea to have some sort of tea or get together to share knowledge. So, when I had to pick a time to host it, it seemed logical to have it on Friday night. There is a Methodist minister who performs a circa 1588 Anglican mass on site (again, this is not for entertainment value; it's a real mass), so why not offer a Jewish Shabbat?
Personally, I would like to celebrate Shabbat, but if I don't take the initiative and do it myself, it won't happen. I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm still in the process of converting, and certainly if there are any born-Jews there who want to jump up and do it instead, I'll let them. Or if they want to take over hosting duties for the next year, that's fine too.
I am kind of basing what I'm doing on something my college did. Not on the first night of Passover, but sometime during the Passover week, the religious department hosted a Pesach seder. One year a rabbi and his family lead it, and two other years it was just lead by a Jewish family from the area. There were always 12-14 students in attendance, of which no more than one and a half were actually Jewish; everyone else was there out of curiosity. Me and a few others liked it so well, we made it a yearly tradition, even though we were not Jewish.
We went through the full seder, and the leader explained things as we went along and we were able to answer questions. That was my first experience with practical Judaism.
I am interested in doing that same sort of thing. Whether or not the Shabbat dinner is technically valid or not does not seem as important to me as presenting the opportunity for people to learn something about Jewish tradition and Judaism. And who knows who might be touched by it? And I also hope to learn things from people who probably know more than I do about medieval Jewish practice in particular.
And I know that the Orthodox POV is that people who are not Jews should not perform ritual mitzvot, but I'll confess that I've never ascribed to that idea. For one thing, how do you know for sure you want to be a Jew if you haven't been put through your paces first? If you're not warming to the idea of ritual practice when it's not required, then it's better to not become a Jew where it IS required.
If you came to my house, you'd see a mezzuzah on my door, and you'd see me kiss it coming and going every day. You'd also see I haven't yet put up my Hanukkiah and Hanukkah decorations yet (!), I wear a kippah on Friday and Saturday, etc. I honestly feel that God has called me to be a Jew, so I don't think He will be angry at me for acting like a Jew while I'm in the process of legally becoming a Jew. Just my stance on it. |
|  | | tamar

Posts: 181 Join date: 2012-01-01 Location: Northern Virginia
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:40 pm | |
| | Mychal wrote: | | Quote: | | If there are in fact no other Jews at the event, it seems like to do Friday night kiddush as a "demonstration" makes it seem like "cultural anthropology". The Hebrew will be incomprehensible and my feeling is that the rituals will be seen by others as "quaint" in keeping with the other simulated "archaic" activities that you are involved in, rather than part of a serious living tradition observed by modern Jews. |
We are not a public organization, so this is not a demonstration for an audience which is there to be entertained. The people who will show up on a Friday night (instead of going to a party) are people who are truly interested in learning something and participating.
I try to always light candles on Shabbat. I have never done a blessing over bread and wine because there's only me, and I don't drink wine (I can't drink grape juice either; it doesn't agree with me). When I noticed last year that there were a number of people on site (relatively speaking) who had Jewish personas (they may or may not be Jews in real life), I thought it would be a neat idea to have some sort of tea or get together to share knowledge. So, when I had to pick a time to host it, it seemed logical to have it on Friday night. There is a Methodist minister who performs a circa 1588 Anglican mass on site (again, this is not for entertainment value; it's a real mass), so why not offer a Jewish Shabbat?
Personally, I would like to celebrate Shabbat, but if I don't take the initiative and do it myself, it won't happen. I'm not going to hide the fact that I'm still in the process of converting, and certainly if there are any born-Jews there who want to jump up and do it instead, I'll let them. Or if they want to take over hosting duties for the next year, that's fine too.
I am kind of basing what I'm doing on something my college did. Not on the first night of Passover, but sometime during the Passover week, the religious department hosted a Pesach seder. One year a rabbi and his family lead it, and two other years it was just lead by a Jewish family from the area. There were always 12-14 students in attendance, of which no more than one and a half were actually Jewish; everyone else was there out of curiosity. Me and a few others liked it so well, we made it a yearly tradition, even though we were not Jewish.
We went through the full seder, and the leader explained things as we went along and we were able to answer questions. That was my first experience with practical Judaism.
I am interested in doing that same sort of thing. Whether or not the Shabbat dinner is technically valid or not does not seem as important to me as presenting the opportunity for people to learn something about Jewish tradition and Judaism. And who knows who might be touched by it? And I also hope to learn things from people who probably know more than I do about medieval Jewish practice in particular.
And I know that the Orthodox POV is that people who are not Jews should not perform ritual mitzvot, but I'll confess that I've never ascribed to that idea. For one thing, how do you know for sure you want to be a Jew if you haven't been put through your paces first? If you're not warming to the idea of ritual practice when it's not required, then it's better to not become a Jew where it IS required.
If you came to my house, you'd see a mezzuzah on my door, and you'd see me kiss it coming and going every day. You'd also see I haven't yet put up my Hanukkiah and Hanukkah decorations yet (!), I wear a kippah on Friday and Saturday, etc. I honestly feel that God has called me to be a Jew, so I don't think He will be angry at me for acting like a Jew while I'm in the process of legally becoming a Jew. Just my stance on it. |
During the process of working towards conversion my Rabbi absolutely saw as part of my journey was living Jewishly. We started Jewish rituals in my house before I was Jewish. My kids attended Hebrew school before they were Jewish. I think the orthodox get so bogged down by the rules they lose the essence of what Judaism is. I am part of progressive community that makes sense to me.
I don't hold orthodoxy up as what I aspire to be Jewishly. I don't see them as being authentic because there are practices as seen in the Ethiopian community that predate Rabbinic Orthodox Judaism. It is just one movement of Judaism along with the others.
Last edited by tamar on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|  | | Dena

Posts: 658 Join date: 2011-09-05 Age: 30
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:40 pm | |
| | Mychal wrote: | And I know that the Orthodox POV is that people who are not Jews should not perform ritual mitzvot, but I'll confess that I've never ascribed to that idea. For one thing, how do you know for sure you want to be a Jew if you haven't been put through your paces first? If you're not warming to the idea of ritual practice when it's not required, then it's better to not become a Jew where it IS required. |
Debbie is not saying non-Jews should not perform rituals (and neither do the Orthodox) but that a non-Jew cannot do it for someone else who is Jewish. Let's say a Jewish family invites another Jew over for dinner who does not know the blessings. The host can say the blessings while the visitor just says "amen" and that will suffice. However, if the host is not Jewish then he cannot say the blessing for the visitor. But you've stated it's not super important if you shabbat dinner is "valid" so I think that is a moot point. |
|  | | Bee

Posts: 317 Join date: 2011-09-12
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:52 pm | |
| When I read what you wrote "medieval re-enactment", a Renaissance fair came to my mind or maybe a play. So you are doing an actual Shabbat as a learning experience? It seems like it will definitely be a learning experience for you and them. Since it is a public thing I would ask a Jewish friend to guide it, as a Noahide our Rabbies have told us from day one not to do public things representing Jews because of the sanctity of Hashems name. We used to have mezuzahs but did not put them up on our new place out of respect. We did not agree at first then listen to the logic behind it. We had parties, barbeques with pork items and drinking and all kinds of hooligan fun things at our previous home. Little did we know our neighbor was Jewish until he whispered to my husband if we were. Now that I know better (and refrain from any pork products, gelatin etc. dairy w/meats) we do not put up mezuzahs so that we are not mistaken as messianic or Jewish people who are not observant. I understand that you have a Jewish soul, and you will do what you think is best regardless of what people tell you. Believe me I understand, we are told not to study beyond the 7 laws of Noah but because we choose to study anyways, we can say we have read and studied 6 Talmud tractates as minimum and can have a discussion to defend our right to study. So my advice is labor in Torah so that you can also be confident in performing such a sacred holiday as Shabbat. Reality is that those in that attend your function will not see it for its true significance but merely a ritual act of a "Day of Rest." Yes they may show respect, but it will not be significant because it takes more than an hour to comprehend the impact on the universe to perform such a empowering act of celebrating Shabbos. I pray Hashem gives you the passion and insight and verbal skills to put it into a context that will shake their very soul and start a spark within them. |
|  | | Debbie B.

Posts: 324 Join date: 2011-09-05 Location: Chicagoland
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:36 pm | |
| Mychal: I would encourage you to put a call out to Jewish participants (and others who are curious) who would be interested in a Friday night kiddush. Then, try to line up Jewish members to lead various parts. I know you might like to do the leading yourself, but it really isn't proper for a non-Jew to lead on behalf of Jews---I'm pretty sure that even most Reform rabbis would agree (that's why at most Reform shuls, there are still some rules about what non-Jews can do---most will not allow a non-Jew to individually take an Aliyah, for example). And you'll have plenty of chances to lead after you convert. Dena is correct that I am not saying that non-Jews can't perform Jewish rituals---I did that myself for over 20 years---and was way more "Jewishly observant" than any of my Reform and many of my Conservative Jewish friends. I'm not concerned about "validity", but about "propriety"---more like the fact that at my minyan a man taking an aliyah without wearing a tallit while up at the bima would be considered improper. (It is optional for women to wear a tallit while at the bima.)
But organizing rather than leading is permissible. In fact, you could say that I was exactly in that position when, before I converted, I ended up being the coordinator for a full Shabbat morning service of a Shabbaton! It came about because the board member who organized the coordinating duty rotation found out to his consternation that I was not Jewish. This was in part related to my finding out that after a decade of active participation in our beloved lay-led minyan and my family paying full family dues that because I was not Jewish, I could not only not officially be a "member", but there was no category for me to officially affiliate at all. (Even if unofficially and socially I was warmly welcomed.) I honestly thought he knew that I wasn't Jewish since I never tried to hide it, but since I was so active and I knew the services quite well, I guess I could see how he might not have known. Although the board member said he had strong views on requirements of Jewish status for membership, he tried to be gracious by telling me that he didn't feel that my not being Jewish disqualified me from coordinating.
I think he gave me the Shabbaton service because he had actually been planning to organize that Shabbat himself so he could make the switch easily. I ended up lining up seven Torah readers and a Haftarah reader, people to lead P'sukei D'Zimra, Shacharit, and Musaf, and two Gabbaim. Then I was responsible for handing out honors for 7 Aliyot, lifting and wrapping the Torah, etc. When I asked the guest speaker if he was a Cohen or Levi, I remember thinking how shocked he would probably be if he knew that the person asking him was ineligible to take any aliyah at all. It turned out to be an amusingly (in retrospect) challenging day to coordinate with all sorts of complications like no Cohen in the house and the Musaf leader with a bad back who needed someone else to carry the Torah for him.....
Your plans for a Friday night kiddush are more equivalent to an event at the Hillel if it is planned primarily for the benefit of Jews while allowing non-Jews to attend. If there are indeed Jews at your event (and it sounds like there probably are) then it is certainly a mitzvah for you to organize a Friday night kiddush for and with them. So go for it!
But if you find that there are no Jews, don't forget that it is fine to do your own Shabbat rituals for yourself without making it a display for others. I have done that before when on scout troop camping trips for example. It just makes me feel uncomfortable to think about Jewish ritual done in the absence of Jews. It reminds me of the weird situation of towns in Eastern Europe which no longer have Jews (after killing them off!) but which have Klezmer revival festivals. |
|  | | Dena

Posts: 658 Join date: 2011-09-05 Age: 30
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:54 pm | |
| If my friends lived closer I'd invite them over on Friday nights just to have a little comapny. I don't think that I'd go through the whole ritual though because it would make me feel like "entertainent". I could light candles and say blessings before they arrived. |
|  | | esf

Posts: 84 Join date: 2012-01-02
 | Subject: Re: Shabbat Seder Guide? Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:06 am | |
| | Dena wrote: | | If my friends lived closer I'd invite them over on Friday nights just to have a little comapny. I don't think that I'd go through the whole ritual though because it would make me feel like "entertainent". I could light candles and say blessings before they arrived. |
Exactly. Mychal, I think you should talk to your Rabbi about this - something about the 'exhibition' nature of it makes me feel uncomfortable. |
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